Fund Your Utopia Without Me.™

12 March 2014

The Russians And The Ukraine: A History Of Atrocities


 



A couple of days ago, a debate erupted on a HotAir.com thread entitled Ron Paul: Crimea has the right to join Russia, and U.S. sanctions would be “criminal” (Yeah, so you know how it went: The 'TruConz' v If you're not a (Ron) Paulistinian, you're a neo-con) concerning Russia's history of oppression, aggression, and genocide in the Ukraine.  I'll repost some of it:

It really amazes me how many Americans simply cant stand to mind their own business either domestically or internationally. We just simply cant mind our own business; we have to tell everyone else what to do and not to do.

- MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM


 ...

Those pesky Dachau’s would just go away if it weren’t for our meddling. Never again! Return to the gold standard and fire doesn’t melt steel!

-  V7_Sport on March 10, 2014 at 3:31 PM
 
Please feel free to take out your own checkbook and write a check to whomever you want in that area of the world. Then, jump on a plane to Kiev, go find some freedom fighters and risk your own life. But don’t use the US government to redistribute American taxpayer dollars – they work very hard for it.

- MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:39 PM

...


You know…I keep looking but can you please point to the areas in the Ukraine where there are concentration Camps..or are you just employing a red herring because your argument is weak?

- MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:36 PM
 
They were deported. 

Why We Should Care About Crimea 

Also, please see the Holodomor. Neighbours exchanged children so that they wouldn’t have to eat their own kids…thanks to the Russians.

Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 3:41 PM 
...

thanks to the Russians.

- Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 3:41 PM
 
Actually it was thanks to Stalin who was not Russian. Stalin was Georgian.

- Kaffa on March 10, 2014 at 3:51 PM
 ...

They were deported.

Why We Should Care About Crimea

Also, please see the Holodomor. Neighbours exchanged children so that they wouldn’t have to eat their own kids…thanks to the Russians.

- Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 3:41 PM

Atrocities happen every day, sadly. It’s a sinful world we live in. But what about our soldiers that basically lose life and limb for nothing?

Yes, feel free to hop a plane to Kiev. 

- Deckard BR on March 10, 2014 at 4:01 PM

...
For cripes sake, the Ron Paul supporters play the same tactics he does. Just because we are not naive to believe there will be fair elections, and just because we see Putin for the KGB tyrant he is, does not mean we are arguing for intervention. But Ron Paul and company just love to trot our that horse. If you are not blithely naive about world affairs then you just MUST be a neocon.

The US have every right to watch out for its interests, and Russia has done enough against our interests (such as arming Iran) to warrant us certain measures. 

- Faramir on March 10, 2014 at 4:02 PM

...

Actually it was thanks to Stalin who was not Russian. Stalin was Georgian.

I wouldn’t blame all Americans for what Obama does.

- Kaffa on March 10, 2014 at 3:51 PM

Stalin was the leader of the Soviet Union and he didn’t act alone. You should also read up on the Ukrainian ‘famine’ of 1921–22, which occurred during Lenin’s tenure. Lenin was born in Ulyanovsk, Russia. 

I don’t blame all Russians for what happened during the Holodomor or any of the other atrocities that were committed in the Ukraine by Russians/Soviets, but I do blame the regimes. Putin is not some ordinary Russian. The man has said:

‘The collapse of the Soviet Union was the biggest geopolitical catastrophe of the century. For the Russian people, it became a real drama. Tens of millions of our citizens and countrymen found themselves outside Russian territory. The epidemic of disintegration also spread to Russia itself.'

The Russians are still in Georgia (Sudetenland?), are in Ukraine (Austria?), and are ‘speaking’ to some of the Latvians. What should the West do if Putin continues to invade former Soviet territories? What country would you consider to be Poland or France?

-  Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 4:12 PM
...

Atrocities happen every day, sadly. It’s a sinful world we live in. But what about our soldiers that basically lose life and limb for nothing?

Yes, feel free to hop a plane to Kiev.

- Deckard BR on March 10, 2014 at 4:01 PM

Yawn. Dude, I opposed the Iraq War, the ground war in Afghanistan – although for reasons probably different that yours, the Libyan adventure, and hitting Syria. Don’t attempt to play the neocon card on me. You’ll lose.

Nevertheless, one can care about the atrocities committed in another country and be concerned about the imperialistic and militaristic actions of tyrants. There were a lot of Americans that didn’t want to get involved in World War II – and some STILL argue that we shouldn’t have entered the ETO. Unfortunately, I suppose that these geniuses would have had us do nothing AFTER Nazi Germany DECLARED WAR ON THE UNITED STATES, which occurred BEFORE we returned the favour.

-  Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 4:20 PM

...


If the United States were invading Canada and Mexico on the pretext of ‘protecting its citizens subjects’ and occupying one and orchestrating the s3cession of another, Ron and the Paulistinians would be screeching at the very top of their lungs.

But, when a thug like Putin does it, imperialism suddenly becomes a big ‘Meh.’

- Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 4:30 PM

...

The Russians are still in Georgia (Sudetenland?), are in Ukraine (Austria?), and are ‘speaking’ to some of the Latvians. What should the West do if Putin continues to invade former Soviet territories? What country would you consider to be Poland or France?

- Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 4:12 PM

Amen. If we don’t make a stand in Ukraine, the consequences can be catastrophic for the West.

- Norwegian on March 10, 2014 at 4:34 PM


The reason that I reposted some of the exchange was to set the table.  Later that evening, I watched (and recommend) the documentary, Between Hitler and Stalin: Ukraine in World War II (Друга світова війна) :






I mentioned the documentary and the issue of the Holomodor on the QOTD thread that night and received the following emails from the dear Rhonda Wilhelm (I hope that she doesn't mind my sharing them with you, but I think that they need wider exposure so that more people will be aware of the bloody history between Russia and the Ukraine, especially in light of current events):


To: Sophie Ro 
From:  Rhonda Wilhelm
RE: Regarding: Between Hitler and Stalin: Ukraine in World War II, the Untold Story…

Thanks for posting that on HotAir tonight.

You may also want to check out info on:

Germans from Russia - Worth the time to read about.  My grandmother was from the Catholic mother village of Mannheim.  Her family had a prosperous farm.  She was the youngest of 10 children.  Their people were invited years before by Catherine the Great to make use of the land between the Black Sea, the Volga and Kutschurgan Rivers, and Odessa.  They kept their language, religion (mainly Catholic/Luthern), culture.  The Russians hated them.   They destroyed their villages and churches.  There's too much to go into on the history.  Many from those areas immigrated to the U.S. (Kansas, North and South Dakota,...my people Portland, OR):
http://library.ndsu.edu/grhc/history_culture/maps_villages/index.htm
 

Those who didn't leave in the early part of the century suffered The Holodomor - there was very little info on this when I first started doing family research about 10 years ago.  It has reached to the sunlight since.

http://holodomorct.org/index.html
 

The Russian Metro system (1932) - Many in the slave labor were people from the villages:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=russian+subway+stations+&FORM=O1HV1

My heart aches for what the Ukrainians are going through now.  They've paid there dues one too many times already.

 

Now down to recent business:  I am so happy that you are on the mend and back on your blog and posting at HotAir.  You may remember that we corresponded back on Dec. 4th.  You answered my gentle FYI about your website.  Turns out I'm the last one you commented to at least to someone who read HotAir.  I post now and then.  My entrance there was rather eventful since they thought I was a nasty troll from way back when, who use giddyup as part as his nom.  Mine is 31giddyup.
 

This is going on longer than you need it to.
 

Again Sophie,  so nice to have you back.  I am so anxious to learn so much more from you.  Now it's time to go read your blog.
 

Blessings,
 

Rhonda Wilhelm


 ***

To: Sophie Ro 
From:  Rhonda Wilhelm
RE:  Forgot this... Pictures of the Holodomor victims

Warning!  Extremely disturbing pictures of the famine victims:



http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/hOTVsFLX_ms/hqdefault.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Refugees_on_train_roof.jpg/800px-Refugees_on_train_roof.jpg

http://www.whiteswillwinparty.org/wp-content/uploads/Whites.Not_.Jews_.ukraine-holodomor.fromCapt.jpg

http://eliminatedleaves.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/holodomor-family.jpg

http://lkjhlkjh.weebly.com/uploads/1/5/2/7/15273390/1688069_orig.jpg?0




 
 
http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pic%5CF%5CA%5CFamine_Genocide%20of%201932_3%20victims.jpg

http://myroslavaterlecky.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/famine-ukraine-holodomor-32-33.jpg






 

 




Thank you so much, Rhonda.

It is important and imperative that people realise that the 'famine' that killed millions in the Ukraine was not an 'Act of God' or 'Mother Nature.'  It was starvation used as a punishment upon the people of the Ukraine by Moscow.  Nearly everyone has heard of the Holocaust.  Far too few are even aware of the Holodomor, which was far from the only act of genocide, punishment, oppression, aggression, and terror committed by the Soviet Union, in specific, or Communists, in general.

I have long maintained that one of the greatest mistakes the world made in the 20th century was the failure to hold Communists to account for the crimes against humanity and war crimes that they committed.  Fascists and Nationalists have often faced tribunals whether at Nuremberg, Dachau, or the Hague.  How many Communists have ever faced such proceedings?

Even today, nearly 70 years after the end of World War II, Nazis are still being prosecuted.  These include those that were 'mere' guards at concentration camps and - not to minimise their complicity and actions - were very low on the totem pole and execution would have followed desertion or dereliction of duty.  Far from arguing that men in their late 80s and early 90s should avoid prosecution for their roles in the Holocaust, I am, instead, attempting to expose the double standard.  There are far younger men and women, who participated in the executions, genocides, forced deportations, gulag system, oppression, aggression, corruption, and terror in Communist regimes such as the Soviet Union that are not only free, but powerful and immensely wealthy (See: Putin - estimated worth of $50 billion; Fidel and Raúl Castro - estimated worth of $5 billion, at least).  Collectively, the world appears to averted the glare of its inquiring glaze from the atrocities committed by leftist despots and regimes, which the nominal exception being North Korea.  In fact, I am reminded of an interview that Bill O'Reilly conducted with Ted Turner several years ago wherein the latter shocked both the host and the audience when he claimed that he had never heard of the millions murdered by Pol Pot.

In closing, if you haven't, please read The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression, which was written by several European academics, underwritten by the European Commission of Human Rights, published by Harvard University Press, and documents a history of repressions, both political and civilian, by Communist states, including genocides, extrajudicial executions, deportations, and artificial famines.  

'An 800-page compendium of the crimes of Communist regimes worldwide, recorded and analyzed in ghastly detail by a team of scholars. The facts and figures, some of them well known, others newly confirmed in hitherto inaccessible archives, are irrefutable. The myth of the well-intentioned founders—the good czar Lenin betrayed by his evil heirs—has been laid to rest for good. No one will any longer be able to claim ignorance or uncertainty about the criminal nature of Communism, and those who had begun to forget will be forced to remember anew.'

- Tony Judt, New York Times Book Review


Also, please view The Soviet Story:





Finally, for an excellent recounting of how the European Left (and the International Left, as a whole) has dealt with the atrocities and ultimate failure of the Soviet Union, please read the late Jean-François Revel's seminal book, Last Exit To Utopia.  In Last Exit, Revel documents the various excuses and justifications made by the Left after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union.  Their arguments can be reduced to three: 1) Stalin 'perverted' Marx, 2) Since what existed in the USSR wasn't really Communism, such could not be blamed for the failure of the Soviet Union, Eastern Bloc, or any of the other nearly 200 documented examples, and 3)  With the 'right people' - like us - Communism would work out beautifully.  Revel cites numerous examples of various European politicians and intellectuals making such arguments.  When reading the quotes, the blind ideology is stunning and the belief in the ability to create Homo Perfectus and Utopia on Earth are, frankly, both delusional and frightening.

Once again, I wish to thank Rhonda for sharing with us.  Thank you.



Update:

I cannot, and will not, continence the lies & will expose the anti-Serb liars though the heavens will fall.
 
- frank on March 14, 2014 at 12:13 AM

Ah, yes. You are, of course, positively 100% correct. ‘erybuddy knows that the claims of the massacres of civilians like the case of the Drina River were all the product of agitprop and propaganda. All of those dozens of Bosnian bodies dumped in the river were actually just the result of a mass suicide wherein the conspirators – acting in this false-flag operation with their partners in the Bosnian political leadership – shot themselves in the head before throwing themselves into the water.

- Resist We Much on March 14, 2014 at 12:27 AM

...


Resist We Much on March 14, 2014 at 12:27 AM

More Albright, anti-Serb propaganda.

But the stretch for giving false citations to comments never made and slandering an entire nation is a small one, no?

- frank on March 14, 2014 at 12:41 AM

...


More Albright, anti-Serb propaganda.

But the stretch for giving false citations to comments never made and slandering an entire nation is a small one, no?

- frank on March 14, 2014 at 12:41 AM


I know, I know! Everything the Serbs is completely moral, legal, and entirely beyond reproach. They were the victims of evil and dastardly conspirators like the Neo-Cons, Israel-Firsters, Bilderbergers, Socialists, Fascists, Communists, NWO, Tri-Lateralists, CFRers, FEMA Camp Guards, Chemtrail Pilots, Vaccine Scientists, Secret Water Fluorinators, Black Helicopter Pilot, False-Flag Planner, MK-ULTRA Practitioner, Paid Propagandists, the Clinton administration, Elvis, the ghosts of such figures as Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby, Idi Amin, Henry VIII, CIA agents, MI6 agents, Q, DGSE infiltrators, Mossad operative, Abbot & Costello, The Three Stooges, Howard Zinn devotees, and a drag queen by the name of ‘Lypsynka,’ who is the secret love child of Jocelyn Wildenstein and Moammar Qaddafi.

As far as Albright is concerned, I don’t know what she said. Not only was I in my teens or early 20s and living in London, I opposed British and American intervention.

Once again – and with feeling – please see The Mo Doctrine:

(For those of you, who are unaware, “Mo” is a nickname of mine)

1) The United States should only get involved in conflicts abroad where there is a direct and imminent threat to the nation and its security. 

2) The United States should stay out of civil wars. 

3) If war is declared upon us, CRUSH, and I mean C-R-U-S-H, the enemy.

As the ever-helpful MarshFox reminded me:

“To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!”

- Conan the Barbarian

4) Fight to win or stay home.

5) The United States has an abysmal record of siding with despots, arming radical extremists and terrorists, and propping up tinpot dictators. Know your enemy, your “ally,” recognise self-determination, and MYOB.

(No installing new governments then “finding out who or what is in it”)

6) Unless the United States is under attack or imminent threat of attack, the President must get Congressional approval for all actions involving military operations abroad pursuant to Art. I, Sec. 8, Clause 11 and the War Powers Resolution Act.

7) When people want to kill each other, let them. 

Pay particular to interest in #1, #2, and #7.

I am not ‘slandering’ (FYI: slander is oral, not written words) ‘an entire nation.’ Unlike you, I don’t blindly, obsessively, and dishonestly blame an entire people for the actions of some. In your book, it would appear, that the Serbs were without fault, committed no violations of the laws of war while the Bosnians and Kosovars were responsible for every atrocity, oppression, and crimes against humanity. When I refer to ‘the Serbs,’ I am referring to the politicians, military, paramilitary forcesa, and those ordinary Serbs that engaged in criminal behaviour.

When George M Cohan wrote ‘Over There,’ he didn’t mean that every single American was going to invade Europe when his lyrics said:


Over there, over there
Send the word, send the word over there
That the Yanks are coming, the Yanks are coming 
The drums are rum-tumming everywhere


I feel quite sad and embarrassed for you. Blindly defending the actions of any country and its leaders, especially thugs like Milošević and Putin. It is a tough, self-demeaning, thankless, and esteem-destroying undertaking. Although I was born a British subject, who became a naturalised American, I couldn’t imagine any circumstance where I would defend my homeland after it invaded and occupied India, for example. If I did, whenever I looked into a mirror, I would see a pathetic individual with a lame argument interwoven throughout with the odious notion of moral relativism.


3 comments:

Brian Roastbeef said...

Thank you for continuing to fight the good fight and explain to conservatives and libertarians, particularly over at HA, the importance of standing up to Putin and for our friends in Ukraine.

I have been a regular reader of Hot Air for years, and while I've appreciated the coverage of Euromaidan and the Russian invasion of Crimea over there, the comments sections of these threads have often invented new levels of stupid. I've taken the ignorance in stride in the past, knowing very few in the USA follow Russian/Ukrainian politics very closely. Yet as Putin has made his true self very clear for the world to see in recent weeks, I simply cannot tolerate anybody who continues to excuse his aggression or claim that it is not an American concern. Nobody should be that blind. Couple that with the absolute arrogance of some of those people, who always try to talk down to others despite having less information... it is more than I can bear.

So, my gratitude to you, ALT, and the few others over in those Hot Gas comments who have more patience than I, and keep trying to educate past all of the RT lies, MSM misinformation, and misguided Ronulan isolationism. If only the United States can stand firm for the new free government in Ukraine, we'll have a close friend (48 million close friends, in fact) right on Putin's doorstep. Sadly, we have an Obama at a time when we need a Reagan - as Kasparov has said, were Obama President in the 1980s, he'd be communicating today through a Soviet firewall.

Best regards and continue the fight.

Predictable-History said...

Thank you so much for your kind words, Brian. Indeed, Putin has proven, unequivocally, who and what he is and I find the defence of him downright bizarre.

Ukrainians deserve the right to resolve their own political disputes and determine their future without a thug invading and occupying part of their country. There is no excuse for Russia's actions even if one believes that all of the pro-Ukrainians are neo-Nazis, which of course, they are not. Putin tightly controls all of the media in Russia. He may tell the international community that the protestors are antisemitic Fascists, but, at home, he and his fellow party members have blamed the Jews for the overthrow of Yanukovych.

I have long tried to explain to natural born Americans that the only thing that Europeans hate more than a strong American foreign policy and formidable military is the lack of same. They may be 'war averse,' but they know that 1) they are incapable of defending themselves against a strong foe, 2) they would have to give up part of their luxurious welfare states in order to pay for the defence that would no longer be available - one that they've enjoyed courtesy of the generosity of the American taxpayers, and 3) Nature abhors a vacuum. The decline of the United States as a superpower doesn't mean that we will all be playing on a level field. On the contrary, someone or a multitude of people be they states, international criminal organisations, and/or terrorist groups. The world is a much more dangerous place when America 'leads from behind.' Without America's military might and its implications for bad actors, there would be nothing to prevent Putin from reconstituting the old USSR with a few new satellites such as France, Italy, Spain, The Netherlands, and the United Kingdom. There would be nothing to stop China from invading and occupying its own Sudetenland (Taiwan), Austrian Anschluss (South Korea), and Poland (Japan) before devouring as much of the Pacific, Sea of Japan, and South China Sea as possible - and since there are 19 Chinese men for every one Chinese woman, the Party may find war an attractive way of culling the herd, so to speak, and alleviate the domestic unrest that is beginning to erupt. In 2011, there were over 100,000 protests - and that number comes from the government.

I don't believe that the US should be the world's policeman or follow the Wilsonian doctrine of making the world safe for democracy and spreading it to the four corners of the world (if you listen to the Left, you might just mistakenly identify the Wilson Doctrine for the - supposedly - 'unprecedented' Bush Doctrine). I do, however, believe enthusiastically in peace through strength, leadership, and, should we make them, following through on our 'red lines.' Further, I understand that, for better or worse, America's national security, economy, and domestic interests are dependent and/or impacted by what happens outside of our borders.

Again, thanks for the compliment and I shall continue to fight the good fight.

- SoRo

James Butler said...

*big grin*
So you are back, You brat... ;-)
Haven't anyone told you when you go for a long period, let someone know you are okay... Not where or what, but that you are okay... You brat...
But I forgive you, as always...
I hope everything is alright...
*holds her and kisses on her head.*
*Deep Sigh* God, you were missed...

Now I got so much reading to do to catch up...
Stay safe MO... *smiles fro ear to ear*
















You brat...
;-)