A couple of days ago, a debate erupted on a HotAir.com thread entitled Ron Paul: Crimea has the right to join Russia, and U.S. sanctions would be “criminal” (Yeah, so you know how it went: The 'TruConz' v If you're not a (Ron) Paulistinian, you're a neo-con) concerning Russia's history of oppression, aggression, and genocide in the Ukraine. I'll repost some of it:
It really amazes me how many Americans simply cant stand to mind their own business either domestically or internationally. We just simply cant mind our own business; we have to tell everyone else what to do and not to do.
- MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:12 PM
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Those pesky Dachau’s would just go away if it weren’t for our meddling.Never again!Return to the gold standard and fire doesn’t melt steel!
- V7_Sport on March 10, 2014 at 3:31 PM
Please feel free to take out your own checkbook and write a check to whomever you want in that area of the world. Then, jump on a plane to Kiev, go find some freedom fighters and risk your own life. But don’t use the US government to redistribute American taxpayer dollars – they work very hard for it.
- MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:39 PM
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You know…I keep looking but can you please point to the areas in the Ukraine where there are concentration Camps..or are you just employing a red herring because your argument is weak?
- MoreLiberty on March 10, 2014 at 3:36 PM
They were deported.
Why We Should Care About Crimea
Also, please see the Holodomor. Neighbours exchanged children so that they wouldn’t have to eat their own kids…thanks to the Russians.
Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 3:41 PM
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thanks to the Russians.
- Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 3:41 PM
Actually it was thanks to Stalin who was not Russian. Stalin was Georgian.
- Kaffa on March 10, 2014 at 3:51 PM
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They were deported.
Why We Should Care About Crimea
Also, please see the Holodomor. Neighbours exchanged children so that they wouldn’t have to eat their own kids…thanks to the Russians.
- Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 3:41 PM
Atrocities happen every day, sadly. It’s a sinful world we live in. But what about our soldiers that basically lose life and limb for nothing?
Yes, feel free to hop a plane to Kiev.
- Deckard BR on March 10, 2014 at 4:01 PM
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For cripes sake, the Ron Paul supporters play the same tactics he does. Just because we are not naive to believe there will be fair elections, and just because we see Putin for the KGB tyrant he is, does not mean we are arguing for intervention. But Ron Paul and company just love to trot our that horse. If you are not blithely naive about world affairs then you just MUST be a neocon.
The US have every right to watch out for its interests, and Russia has done enough against our interests (such as arming Iran) to warrant us certain measures.
- Faramir on March 10, 2014 at 4:02 PM
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Actually it was thanks to Stalin who was not Russian. Stalin was Georgian.
I wouldn’t blame all Americans for what Obama does.
- Kaffa on March 10, 2014 at 3:51 PM
Stalin was the leader of the Soviet Union and he didn’t act alone. You should also read up on the Ukrainian ‘famine’ of 1921–22, which occurred during Lenin’s tenure. Lenin was born in Ulyanovsk, Russia.
I don’t blame all Russians for what happened during the Holodomor or any of the other atrocities that were committed in the Ukraine by Russians/Soviets, but I do blame the regimes. Putin is not some ordinary Russian. The man has said:
‘The collapse of the Soviet Union was the biggest geopolitical catastrophe of the century. For the Russian people, it became a real drama. Tens of millions of our citizens and countrymen found themselves outside Russian territory. The epidemic of disintegration also spread to Russia itself.'
The Russians are still in Georgia (Sudetenland?), are in Ukraine (Austria?), and are ‘speaking’ to some of the Latvians. What should the West do if Putin continues to invade former Soviet territories? What country would you consider to be Poland or France?
- Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 4:12 PM
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Atrocities happen every day, sadly. It’s a sinful world we live in. But what about our soldiers that basically lose life and limb for nothing?
Yes, feel free to hop a plane to Kiev.
- Deckard BR on March 10, 2014 at 4:01 PM
Yawn. Dude, I opposed the Iraq War, the ground war in Afghanistan – although for reasons probably different that yours, the Libyan adventure, and hitting Syria. Don’t attempt to play the neocon card on me. You’ll lose.
Nevertheless, one can care about the atrocities committed in another country and be concerned about the imperialistic and militaristic actions of tyrants. There were a lot of Americans that didn’t want to get involved in World War II – and some STILL argue that we shouldn’t have entered the ETO. Unfortunately, I suppose that these geniuses would have had us do nothing AFTER Nazi Germany DECLARED WAR ON THE UNITED STATES, which occurred BEFORE we returned the favour.
- Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 4:20 PM
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If the United States were invading Canada and Mexico on the pretext of ‘protecting itscitizenssubjects’ and occupying one and orchestrating the s3cession of another, Ron and the Paulistinians would be screeching at the very top of their lungs.
But, when a thug like Putin does it, imperialism suddenly becomes a big ‘Meh.’
- Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 4:30 PM
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The Russians are still in Georgia (Sudetenland?), are in Ukraine (Austria?), and are ‘speaking’ to some of the Latvians. What should the West do if Putin continues to invade former Soviet territories? What country would you consider to be Poland or France?
- Resist We Much on March 10, 2014 at 4:12 PM
Amen. If we don’t make a stand in Ukraine, the consequences can be catastrophic for the West.
- Norwegian on March 10, 2014 at 4:34 PM
The reason that I reposted some of the exchange was to set the table. Later that evening, I watched (and recommend) the documentary, Between Hitler and Stalin: Ukraine in World War II (Друга світова війна) :
I mentioned the documentary and the issue of the Holomodor on the QOTD thread that night and received the following emails from the dear Rhonda Wilhelm (I hope that she doesn't mind my sharing them with you, but I think that they need wider exposure so that more people will be aware of the bloody history between Russia and the Ukraine, especially in light of current events):
To: Sophie Ro
From: Rhonda Wilhelm
RE: Regarding: Between Hitler and Stalin: Ukraine in World War II, the Untold Story…
Thanks for posting that on HotAir tonight.
You may also want to check out info on:
Germans from Russia - Worth the time to read about. My grandmother was
from the Catholic mother village of Mannheim. Her family had a
prosperous farm. She was the youngest of 10 children. Their people
were invited years before by Catherine the Great to make use of the land
between the Black Sea, the Volga and Kutschurgan Rivers, and Odessa.
They kept their language, religion (mainly Catholic/Luthern), culture.
The Russians hated them. They destroyed their villages and churches.
There's too much to go into on the history. Many from those areas
immigrated to the U.S. (Kansas, North and South Dakota,...my people
Portland, OR):
http://library.ndsu.edu/grhc/
Those who didn't leave in the early part of the century suffered The Holodomor - there was very little info on this when I first started doing family research about 10 years ago. It has reached to the sunlight since.
Those who didn't leave in the early part of the century suffered The Holodomor - there was very little info on this when I first started doing family research about 10 years ago. It has reached to the sunlight since.
http://holodomorct.org/index.
The Russian Metro system (1932) - Many in the slave labor were people from the villages:
http://www.bing.com/images/
My heart aches for what the Ukrainians are going through now. They've paid there dues one too many times already.
Now down to recent business: I am so happy that you are on the mend and back on your blog and posting at HotAir. You may remember that we corresponded back on Dec. 4th. You answered my gentle FYI about your website. Turns out I'm the last one you commented to at least to someone who read HotAir. I post now and then. My entrance there was rather eventful since they thought I was a nasty troll from way back when, who use giddyup as part as his nom. Mine is 31giddyup.
This is going on longer than you need it to.
Again Sophie, so nice to have you back. I am so anxious to learn so much more from you. Now it's time to go read your blog.
Blessings,
Rhonda Wilhelm
***
To: Sophie Ro
From: Rhonda Wilhelm
RE: Forgot this... Pictures of the Holodomor victims
Warning! Extremely disturbing pictures of the famine victims:
Thank you so much, Rhonda.
It is important and imperative that people realise that the 'famine' that killed millions in the Ukraine was not an 'Act of God' or 'Mother Nature.' It was starvation used as a punishment upon the people of the Ukraine by Moscow. Nearly everyone has heard of the Holocaust. Far too few are even aware of the Holodomor, which was far from the only act of genocide, punishment, oppression, aggression, and terror committed by the Soviet Union, in specific, or Communists, in general.
I have long maintained that one of the greatest mistakes the world made in the 20th century was the failure to hold Communists to account for the crimes against humanity and war crimes that they committed. Fascists and Nationalists have often faced tribunals whether at Nuremberg, Dachau, or the Hague. How many Communists have ever faced such proceedings?
Even today, nearly 70 years after the end of World War II, Nazis are still being prosecuted. These include those that were 'mere' guards at concentration camps and - not to minimise their complicity and actions - were very low on the totem pole and execution would have followed desertion or dereliction of duty. Far from arguing that men in their late 80s and early 90s should avoid prosecution for their roles in the Holocaust, I am, instead, attempting to expose the double standard. There are far younger men and women, who participated in the executions, genocides, forced deportations, gulag system, oppression, aggression, corruption, and terror in Communist regimes such as the Soviet Union that are not only free, but powerful and immensely wealthy (See: Putin - estimated worth of $50 billion; Fidel and Raúl Castro - estimated worth of $5 billion, at least). Collectively, the world appears to averted the glare of its inquiring glaze from the atrocities committed by leftist despots and regimes, which the nominal exception being North Korea. In fact, I am reminded of an interview that Bill O'Reilly conducted with Ted Turner several years ago wherein the latter shocked both the host and the audience when he claimed that he had never heard of the millions murdered by Pol Pot.
In closing, if you haven't, please read The Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression, which was written by several European academics, underwritten by the European Commission of Human Rights, published by Harvard University Press, and documents a history of repressions, both political and civilian, by Communist states, including genocides, extrajudicial executions, deportations, and artificial famines.
'An 800-page compendium of the crimes of Communist regimes worldwide, recorded and analyzed in ghastly detail by a team of scholars. The facts and figures, some of them well known, others newly confirmed in hitherto inaccessible archives, are irrefutable. The myth of the well-intentioned founders—the good czar Lenin betrayed by his evil heirs—has been laid to rest for good. No one will any longer be able to claim ignorance or uncertainty about the criminal nature of Communism, and those who had begun to forget will be forced to remember anew.'
- Tony Judt, New York Times Book Review
Also, please view The Soviet Story:
Finally, for an excellent recounting of how the European Left (and the International Left, as a whole) has dealt with the atrocities and ultimate failure of the Soviet Union, please read the late Jean-François Revel's seminal book, Last Exit To Utopia. In Last Exit, Revel documents the various excuses and justifications made by the Left after the fall of the Berlin Wall and the collapse of the Soviet Union. Their arguments can be reduced to three: 1) Stalin 'perverted' Marx, 2) Since what existed in the USSR wasn't really Communism, such could not be blamed for the failure of the Soviet Union, Eastern Bloc, or any of the other nearly 200 documented examples, and 3) With the 'right people' - like us - Communism would work out beautifully. Revel cites numerous examples of various European politicians and intellectuals making such arguments. When reading the quotes, the blind ideology is stunning and the belief in the ability to create Homo Perfectus and Utopia on Earth are, frankly, both delusional and frightening.
Once again, I wish to thank Rhonda for sharing with us. Thank you.
Update:
Resist We Much on March 14, 2014 at 12:27 AM
More Albright, anti-Serb propaganda.
But the stretch for giving false citations to comments never made and slandering an entire nation is a small one, no?
- frank on March 14, 2014 at 12:41 AM
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More Albright, anti-Serb propaganda.
But the stretch for giving false citations to comments never made and slandering an entire nation is a small one, no?
- frank on March 14, 2014 at 12:41 AM
I know, I know! Everything the Serbs is completely moral, legal, and
entirely beyond reproach. They were the victims of evil and dastardly
conspirators like the Neo-Cons, Israel-Firsters, Bilderbergers,
Socialists, Fascists, Communists, NWO, Tri-Lateralists, CFRers, FEMA
Camp Guards, Chemtrail Pilots, Vaccine Scientists, Secret Water
Fluorinators, Black Helicopter Pilot, False-Flag Planner, MK-ULTRA
Practitioner, Paid Propagandists, the Clinton administration, Elvis, the
ghosts of such figures as Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby, Idi Amin, Henry
VIII, CIA agents, MI6 agents, Q, DGSE infiltrators, Mossad operative,
Abbot & Costello, The Three Stooges, Howard Zinn devotees, and a
drag queen by the name of ‘Lypsynka,’ who is the secret love child of
Jocelyn Wildenstein and Moammar Qaddafi.
As far as Albright is concerned, I don’t know what she said. Not
only was I in my teens or early 20s and living in London, I opposed
British and American intervention.
Once again – and with feeling – please see The Mo Doctrine:
(For those of you, who are unaware, “Mo” is a nickname of mine)
1) The United States should only get involved in conflicts abroad where there is a direct and imminent threat to the nation and its security.
2) The United States should stay out of civil wars.
3) If war is declared upon us, CRUSH, and I mean C-R-U-S-H, the enemy.
As the ever-helpful MarshFox reminded me:
“To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women!”
- Conan the Barbarian
4) Fight to win or stay home.
5) The United States has an abysmal record of siding with despots, arming radical extremists and terrorists, and propping up tinpot dictators. Know your enemy, your “ally,” recognise self-determination, and MYOB.
(No installing new governments then “finding out who or what is in it”)
6) Unless the United States is under attack or imminent threat of attack, the President must get Congressional approval for all actions involving military operations abroad pursuant to Art. I, Sec. 8, Clause 11 and the War Powers Resolution Act.
7) When people want to kill each other, let them.
Pay particular to interest in #1, #2, and #7.
I am not ‘slandering’ (FYI: slander is oral, not written words) ‘an
entire nation.’ Unlike you, I don’t blindly, obsessively, and
dishonestly blame an entire people for the actions of some. In your
book, it would appear, that the Serbs were without fault, committed no
violations of the laws of war while the Bosnians and Kosovars were
responsible for every atrocity, oppression, and crimes against humanity.
When I refer to ‘the Serbs,’ I am referring to the politicians,
military, paramilitary forcesa, and those ordinary Serbs that engaged in criminal
behaviour.
When George M Cohan wrote ‘Over There,’ he didn’t mean that every
single American was going to invade Europe when his lyrics said:
Over there, over there
Send the word, send the word over there
That the Yanks are coming, the Yanks are coming
The drums are rum-tumming everywhere
I feel quite sad and embarrassed for you. Blindly defending the
actions of any country and its leaders, especially thugs like Milošević
and Putin. It is a tough, self-demeaning, thankless, and
esteem-destroying undertaking. Although I was born a British subject,
who became a naturalised American, I couldn’t imagine any circumstance
where I would defend my homeland after it invaded and occupied India,
for example. If I did, whenever I looked into a mirror, I would see a
pathetic individual with a lame argument interwoven throughout with the
odious notion of moral relativism.
